It seems as though every writing rubric includes some measurement of staying on topic. That always seemed pretty legitimate since many of my students would respond to questions with completely unrelated answers. But Spandel offers a terrific explanation of why writers need some latitude when it comes to the topic. "We have a right to ask student writers to make a point in their writing, too. That's fair. Sometimes, though, they must travel a bit from the prompt to get there."
I am wondering if we could revise our rubrics to reflect this. As they are now, they give us a way to score writing based on the "perfect" response, or as Spandel says, "the well-worn path". If we are going to encourage personalizing or extending the prompt we need to do more to push our kids out onto the "less- traveled road".
I really like the idea that when we read a piece of writing we should see if we can determine what point the author is trying to make. It would be interesting to do an unofficial experiment to see how we judge the work when we don't see the prompt. Maybe we could measure the important thing we are trying to measure.
There are students who are very good formulaic writers. They follow all the rules and develop each topic completely. They use complex sentences and correct punctuation. And while they always score well, something always seems to be missing.
This chapter was, like the others, powerful. These words especially appealed to me: "In writing, creativity matters. Spontaneity is a virtue. Originality and perspective define voice. Risk is essential to success. And writers who never think for themselves cannot get anywhere". So nicely said.
Sometimes the issue of staying on topic is about teacher control. I know a few teachers who would never allow a drifting from the topic, even if it is high quality writing related to the prompt. They wouldn't hesitate to mark the student down for failing to follow directions. As Spandel wrote, "Wander from my topic and you will pay". I never want to be that teacher.
Mabe we could use a rough draft rubric that focuses on developing ideas and then during a writing conference investigate the ideas of those "off-topic" students. We could also shift away from rubrics to more of an evaluation with a focus on developing ideas more. Rubrics, SOAPStone etc seem no more than a quick adapation of the writing section of any grammar and usage handbooks. Maybe we need to re-evaluate our own prompts if they do mislead students or are too vague.
I'm also intrigued at the thought of scoring a student's writing without knowing the prompt. Sometimes I feel that when I score a piece of writing, I have a predetermined notion of what the response "should" include. Is it possible that my own personal notions cloud my judgement when scoring writing?
My thoughts exactly Marina/Rebecca. I sometimes score writing based on the first ten responses I read … "Well, the group seems to think this is where the writing should go …" I may ask a fellow teacher to let me see their students writing to see if I score differently when I am not aware of the prompt.
Spandel Chapter 3 Reflection The Right to Go “Off Topic”
This chapter left me feeling very lucky that I teach a composition class which allows me so much more flexibility in assignments than my literature classes. Then I started really thinking about the writing portion of my literature classes. As noted in the chapter, my literature classes have required prompts that are assigned for all students by grade level with little room to wiggle. I understand the thinking behind this - in planning the curriculum maps, the required assignments hit on each type of writing which is important (narrative, persuasive, research, poetry etc.). It is, however, hard to fit much more into a semester than those required prompts. While I try to move through these prompts the same way I move through assignments in my composition classes, time is certainly more limited and it is not always an attainable goal. These thoughts all led me to one more: what if all students were required to take both a literature class and a writing class each year so that proper time could be spent on helping students develop their voices and an appreciation of the writing process separately from helping students develop an understanding and appreciation of literature? That would be my kind of ELA curriculum ;)
I also noted how she asks at the end about papers being put to use (37) and remembered how at our group interview in March, there was a conversation about publishing student work (is it Norm’s voice in my head?). This last semester, my eighth graders wrote mini-memoirs and I really took my time. I read sample memoirs and had students journal; they brainstormed and outlined; they drafted and peer edited; I reviewed and helped them to revise and edit and then gave them additional time once the opportunity to work on it in class was over to produce their final revised copy which also included a reflection of their work. I was so impressed with the results of their efforts that (keeping the March conversation in mind) I created a book we called “Memoiries”, printed copies and, for kids who wanted them, brought them to Staples to have them wire-bound and covered. And I cannot help but think that allowing myself to be flexible with deadlines and taking the extra time and steps to work on this with my literature classes aided in their success. This realization goes back to my first paragraph and the limited time to spend on writing in literature classes…if only I could approach every assignment this way! And so the cycle continues.
Then I stumbled onto this sentence from Bob Ornstein at the end, “Good coaching doesn’t begin with spelling and grammar - or commas. It begins with the writer’s ideas - and with the writer” (39). “Revise for meaning, edit for conventions” is what I have my students write down in their writer’s notebooks as I try to help them understand the difference between the two and how much more important it is to revise than to edit. Finding this statement at the end of the chapter gave me a twinge of validation that I am on the right track with this line of thought and should keep that as my developing writers’ mantra. Small victories! Have a good week!
I love the idea of the mini-memoirs--it echoes Freedom Writers--maybe some of those entries could even serve as exemplars--or your students' works could. I sympathize with you constrained writing curriculum, expecially for s semester course. Memoirs do fit within the narrative classification and meet a-e of the Common Core for narrative writing. Argumentation comes from th Rhtori of Ancient Greece and was meant for public speaking--as do all the other classifications we use. (Lil Brannon and Charles Knoblauch-sp?- wrote a great book, Rhetorical Traditions and the Teaching of Writing that offers many insights into crafting thoughtful writing. You do have to wade through much philosophy, from epistemology to brain science, but the effort seems well worth it.
I love the idea of creating student published pieces of writing. I think that the motivation to be successful lies in creating something that many other people will read. Students tend to be more careful when they know their writing will be looked at by more people other than themselves and a teacher. I think it's wonderful that you were able to spend extra time with them making their memoirs pieces they were proud to publish.
As I was reading your first paragraph I was thinking, 'I wonder if having separate required literature and writing classes would work?' Then you wrote exactly what I was thinking. I really believe that could work. It would also give us an opportunity to work collaboratively with other content areas in order to help students read and write more effectively across the curriculum. We'd have so much more time to develop assignments and "revise for meaning", rather than just crank out as much as we can in the very limited amount of time that we've got. Even if we couldn't do it for kids each year, maybe it would be possible to do it in the earlier grades (8&9).
The idea of separate literature and writing classes is really interesting. At my former school we essentially accomplished that sophomore year. Students took a term of speech, a term of writing (not really enough) and a semester of writing That way, they could really focus on one discipline at a time.
My classes now are divided between literature and writing as two separate skills -- I'm teaching more critical reading than I am literary analysis, so it would seem that treating the two tracks as different subjects would be practical.
I'm not sure why we focus so much on writing literary analysis. It's a great skill if you're going to be an English major, but maybe it would make more sense to provide more "career ready" than "college ready" opportunities for writers.
Hello all, Chapter 3 opens with a discussion about staying on-topic in a particular instance of standardized testing. Students who wrote about two endangered species instead of one received the lowest possible score on their essays. To be honest, I do not understand the rationale. Yes, they were prompted to write about one species. They did. Then they went above and beyond and wrote about a second species. If that is their prerogative, to go beyond the bare minimum assigned, how then can they receive the bare minimum score? I would love my students to do more than whatever merits them the D grade. My outgoing seniors were only interested in passing, with or without the cushion of added points above a 60.0. In my eighth grade class, I have had one turnaround student go from a D to a B. However, as I learned this morning, he is only motivated by the promise of a $400 bicycle. I bring up grades rather than focusing on writing because to me grades equal effort. Yes, I give a rubric, but I also look at the student’s progress and the effort they put into a piece of writing. Is the topic well-developed, was it revised, etc.? I wouldn’t mind if a student took creative license with a topic because it would demonstrate something other than the written regurgitation of whatever was discussed in class or what the majority of students chose to write about. Reading the opening anecdote actually concerns me, because what if assessors like that are who are grading our students? How is that fair? At the same time, by assigning prompt after prompt, are we not creating our own monsters? The author states it best: “I had learned to write a thesis when someone handed me a subject. When I had to conceptualize it myself, I was stumped.” (38) I agree that students need that structure initially, but at what point do we begin to encourage individuality? Of assigning a writing assignment and letting them create what they choose to hand in? We can still allow them freedom while adhering to certain guidelines (MLA format, in-text citations, use of literary devices, etc.). There needs to be some sort of transition where students mentally remove their training wheels for writing. With my Composition class, those students simply are not ready to lose the wheels. In my literature classes, however, how much time can I legitimately devote to writing before I fall behind on all the other requirements I need to meet? I feel like this response is just a series of questions, but hopefully at least by my asking them I can mentally prepare for what I can do in the remaining time with my students as well as prepare for next year. Have a good week!
Colleen, I totally agree with you that student's progress and effort needs to be part of assessing writing, and that is a major component missing on all of these standardized writing tests. And your series of questions echoes in my head as well. We have composition classes which in our case consist of mostly low-level, struggling writers, and a variety of literature classes into which we are expected to "stick" some writing, neither of these provide ample opportunity for true writing instruction as we understand it should be done.
Rebecca, I think you're right when you say "It's very sad." And I think it is sad to have to struggle so much to do what we know to be right for our students.
I'm right there with you as far as having a lot of questions in response to the reading. I guess that's good though. When we stop asking questions, that's when we should worry! Asking the questions prompts us to think of creative solutions to these problems we encounter as we try to help our students develop into thoughtful readers and writers.
This is a little off-track, but on the topic of standardized testing, is anyone hearing from their administration about pushback on the excessive amount of testing at the state level? My superintendent shared a report that summarized testimony from the state superintendent's association to the legislature protesting the amount of testing that students are doing. My own district is also backing way off on the number of assessments, especially in writing, telling me that we are turning the corner from quantity to quality.
There is pushback in MA right now. There is at least one bill floating around that is demanding a 3 year moratorium on high stakes testing in order to research the issue more in depth. Rhode Island passed a similar law last fall. The MTA is having a week of action this week to support this initiative.
Colleen, What a brilliant line: "There needs to be some sort of transition where students mentally remove their training wheels for writing". Your questions are thought-provoking and could be topics for reflections all by themselves. I have a relative who graded MCAS essays one year and that was exactly the sort of scoring he was required to do. He admitted that, after correcting several compositions, they all became boring to him. It's very sad.
As I read and re-read Chapter 3 and compare the lessons I’m learning with my classroom writing experience, I arrive at the same conclusions Spandel does:
Writing assessment becomes a control issue (33). Where the writer begins is not where h/she needs to end up (35). Why don’t student’s put more voice into their writing? Why don’t caged animals run more (31)?
How can we change this?
Is our job simply to get our students to aim for a high score on the test or learn to love writing? Can we do both?
I’m thinking I may have to section my writing block into creative writing and test writing. But what if students don’t put any creativity into their test writing? What if they don’t follow the prompt, or stray off topic?
How can we change this?
In my class this morning I took my students through our past Saturday’s experience. I showed them pictures of the Lloyd Center I had taken and described our day. I told them about our writing prompt (simply to write) and shared with them one of my pieces. I then asked them to reflect on their special place, to close their eyes and go to a place that made them comfortable. Maybe it looked like the Lloyd center or maybe it didn’t. Once we were ready, I tasked them with writing, only I didn’t give them a prompt. They could write whatever they wanted to. They could sit anywhere in our three rooms (46 kids) and use our computers, laptops, or a pencil and paper, whatever they chose.
Their faces lit up, they couldn’t stop talking with each other about the ideas that were forming in their brains, and eventually they couldn’t stop writing. It was amazing. Children were littered among the books, tables and chairs in our rooms. Stretching on the floor, sitting on the counters and curled up in the corners. Fingers typing or scribbling whatever was on their minds. Gazing out the window only to stumble upon a thought, realize it’s importance to their story and immediately capture it on paper. I was proud to teach today.
How can we get this kind of excitement in every writing class?
This post made my day, Bill! Your students are so fortunate to have a teacher who shares with them and invites them to do the same! I don't know the answer to your last question, but when you have those days that make you second guess yourself, just remember today and that you were proud to teach! I love it!
Wow Bill -- what a wonderful writing experience for your students. We're tied to 68 minute blocks during which we are supposed to have an activator, a lesson, and then some sort of formative wrap-up. That kind of scheduling rigidity really diminishes the creative process. Fortunately, I've been there long enough to stretch the expectations, and I often "set them free" when a lesson is going well. It's worth the risk of reprimand to see the excitement in a student's face.
Spandel said that “writers do not wander off topic, but rather onto their real topics.” Later in THE WRITER’S NOTEBOOK, Bob Ornstein followed up with the observation that his professors attention “was more on my thinking than on the writing itself.”
Several years ago I attended a weekend writing workshop at Bard College. Their Institute for Writing and Thinking is based on Peter Elbow’s theories of writing which rely heavily on free writing. I remember being told to “write until I (my teacher) tell you to stop, even if you think you don’t have any ideas.” I was, of course, resistant to that until I really gave it a sincere effort.
Sometimes there aren’t ideas flowing from your brain to your pen, but something about the actual act of writing – with a pen and not a computer – stimulates new activity in the brain. My colleagues and I are fond of citing the studies that support this process as opposed to the keyboard (which, ironically I am using now). Skepticism aside, free writing does work, and one thought leads to another until the page becomes a travel guide to your brain’s exploration of sense and memory. Spandel says earlier that “Each little piece on the page opens a door beyond which is a fork in the road,” and those connections provide more insight into the mind of the writer than any canned prompt can.
The real problem that this chapter considers is not the writer’s problem, but the reader’s. How do we assess something so unique and individual? Perhaps instead of spending time on rubber stamping deadly prompts we should be re-writing rubrics with new indicators that better reflect “the important thing” and not “the simple thing.”
You make a great point in saying that the problem in this chapter belongs to the reader not to the writer. It reminds me of a conversation I had with a fellow English teacher where she told me that when she grades essays she only looks for one thing and ignores all other errors or places for improvement. I remember being shocked that a fellow teacher could ignore the entire piece of writing and only focus in on whether or not quotes are used correctly. Mindsets like that are what's creating a generation of kids who dislike writing.
Colleen -- that sounds like a John Connors (?) management approach to writing. It's supposed to make the correcting load easier, but I always found it frustrating to ignore everything except the Focused Areas of Correction. I don't think that students can necessarily put together all the pieces after an entire year of feedback like that.
This chapter was ringing a bit redudant at the beginning as it seemed to be more of the same choosing one's own topic, but then it evoked thoughts about evaluating our prompts. Sometimes, the prompts lend themselves to simple answers and other times generate higher level thinking skills, such aswriting about two endangered species instead of one. Two seems to mrit more reward than almost the highest score. Those prompts do lock us into narrow thinkng that contradicts the purpose of writing--to create meaning.In our Deparment of English we ar evaluating our rubric, our method of assessing student writing as our team Student Learning Goal. We have found that some of our prompts lead to summary or formulaic writing and that our rubrics too often depend on external structures--College Board/parrc etc. As a able Leader for grading the Long Comp in MCAS, I had to remind readers constantly that we were evaluting writing and no literary analysis. We had simply become used to prompts based on literature and even personal preference. I am glad to know that this Writing Institute is putting forth even more of such discussion
I do think we forget to create cognitive tension necessary for thinking, aka writing. How can we employ Hegelian Dialectic to help student create authentic writing and then have an authentic assessment? Sometimes we have to ask the students to be patient, o realioze that one question generates an answer and then that answer generates another question. It's like Thomas Merton's idea that one question abou truth will simply lead to another question; our lives then becom a series of questions with temporary answers. I have used Keat "Ode on Grecian Urn" and the "solarium" chapter of Black Swan Green to help students write about such topics--even in poetic form. It reminds me of the old Greek myths where Chaos generates order. We just have to make sure we allow for that chaos.
It's funny that you mention chaos...just this week, as part of an anticipation guide for reading "A Midsummer Night's Dream" I asked my eighth graders if they agreed or disagreed with the statement "Chaos and confusion are necessary parts of life." Most of them agreed. In the brief discussion that followed, they explained to me that in order to appreciate calm, you have to experience chaos. One student said, "You don't know what love is unless you know hate." Another commented that chaos and confusion help you to learn new things because when you struggle with something you appreciate the solution more. These kids get it...how can I harness this thinking for writing??
NaNoWriMo is National Novel Writing Month. I do this every year with my students. For mentor discussions on writing, try the blog pages on ywp.nanowrimo.org (the young writers program site) - they are filled with writing advice from normal, everyday people - mostly kids and teens - sometimes famous authors. Many of them focus on getting over writer's block or pushing forward, even when you think what you wrote is junk!
Chapter 3 Reflection I laughed out loud when I read the following statements," The writer expanded the topic a bit, true. Good for her. She knew more than the prompt required." Isn't it ironic that we want our students to be able to think for themselves and problem solve on their own, but when they go off topic and become creative, we penalize? We want them to be individuals, but answer a prompt, given to everyone, just the way we want you to or else. In essence,on state testing, we are asking our students to fake their passion for a cookie cutter prompt. How discouraging? This remindded me of the year MCAS gave a prompt to the 4th graders that required them to write about a snow day. I remember the uproar. Not everyone had experienced a snow day. I will admit, here in our little forum that I have had students call me to their desks during the long composition stating that they didn't have anything to write about. My response was always,"Make it up. Don't worry the MCAS police are not going to call home to verify your story." Solution, solution, solution? Not sure, but I know what I would like to try at the lower elementary level. Give each student a notebook, let them personalize it, and give them time to write about anything they want every day. Let that writing be pictures, if needed, but let them write about what they know, what they feel, and what they wish for. I think that our goal should be to get our little ones to love writing. After all, if a student loves to write and are writing about what they like, their voice and passion will shine. So, when did writing for pleasure become taboo in schools?
Tracie, I agree with you- we should get them to love writing because then they will write! And when they write they will become better writers. Makes sense to us! I also used to tell my 4th graders that when they come across a prompt they cannot relate to, make it up.
As I read chapter 3, a couple of quotes struck some thoughts for me. There were a lot of powerful thoughts within the chapter, thoughts that made me as the reader stop and think and wonder about my own opinions. These two quotes in particular struck a cord.
"Why don't caged animals run more?" I really liked this analogy that the author made when talking about how we place too many restrictions on our students as writers. It got me thinking that not only are our writing classes turning into a scene where we hold students back, but that as teachers we are also feeling a little bit like caged animals. We are held back by standards, curriculum, evaluations, etc. There is so much to do and accomplish that I feel like we restrict ourselves in what we allow ourselves as teachers to do. Can we be creative when the "to do" list gets longer and longer with each passing day? I think these feelings then transfer into what our expectations are. We need to meet those standards so I know that I look at writing from students sometimes and just go through a checklist in my head. Are there three details, are there topic and closing sentences, etc. etc. etc. How boring! I think that so far all of our conversations during class meeting times have really showed that we are all ready to break out of this mold but need to find a way to do so while still checking off everything that we can find on that to do list.
Second, this quote was found on the first page of the chapter. "Writing a first draft is very much like watching a Polariod develop. You can't - and in fact, you're not supposed to - know exactly what the picture is going to look like until it has finished developing." - Anne Lamott I loved this thought because I think that this is an idea that writers need to internalize, and I try to explain this idea to my students but it is a tough idea for them to wrap their heads around. They always seem to have the "short story problem." They write very short pieces with little substance, but I think that part of the problem may go back to how we address this idea of being "on topic." For my students, I think they are starting to envision being on topic as creating a piece that is chronologically sound, so in other words, it has a beginning, middle, and end. They don't worry about developing that middle because their focus is make sure it has a beginning, middle, and end. It's hard for students to understand that sometimes it takes a while before you settle on a final product, and that when you set out to write a story, it may actually end up going in a completely different direction. I don't think that my students even allow themselves to feel that their story can end in a different way.
My thoughts exactly Marina - I love the connection between students and teachers with the caged animal quote (Spandel is quite sassy). It does become boring when we try to correct boring papers - but are we making the papers boring … or is the system?
I liked the Anne Lamott quote also! I believe that idea resonates with us because we have some experience and maturity, just as the author realized how his writing developed in college.
I loved the example Spandel gave of the teacher who wasn't sure how to score the student response that went "off topic" by thoughtfully expanding on a prompt. That the state would rank such a response as 1 out of 5 is, to me, immoral. How wrong it is to teach students that thinking beyond the prompt makes them "in need of improvement". And yet, we need to teach our kids how to play the game of standardized testing when we could be teaching them how to write and think for themselves. It's so sad to think of the potential that might never be reached as a result of such a narrow way of assessing our students' strengths.
I love that you use the phrase of playing the game. I feel like that has become a requirement in my room as well. I have even used the phrase with my students when getting through what's required in order to get to what is needed. I hope that the state eventually realizes what it is doing to our students.
I was relieved to be reminded that actual humans read and score the MCAS prompts! However, I don't feel that adding an additional example is truly going "off topic". My students tend to go off topic in that they do not stick to the purpose of the assignment and instead of focused, thoughtful analysis, they regurgitate a summary of the story rather than explaining a theme or describing a character or specific conflict. I have to say I would welcome it if my students went off topic and put in some effort and original ideas even if they needed to be revised a little. I don't see a lot of effort. Students seem to just write to complete a worksheet or check things off. More and more students just copy each other's work or plagiarize essays from the internet. Students also do not like to cross out anything or revise. They seem to take quite a bit of time to write something down and then if they have a sentence that doesn't work they aren't usually willing to part with it because then they have to write another one. I did experiment with daily journaling last fall with freshman honors students. That did produce some original writing and I got to know my students better, but I think journal writing just helps to get some kids to feel more comfortable writing but the journal entries don't really stand alone as finished writing, especially when working with a specific curriculum and assigned prompts! The reading selection was interesting to hear another point of view; however, the reality is if I teach to the test or formulaic writing, at least students will pass the MCAS and learn a few basics which they can leave behind as they mature like the author described in his memoir.
Ch. 3 Reflection
ReplyDeleteIt seems as though every writing rubric includes some measurement of staying on topic. That always seemed pretty legitimate since many of my students would respond to questions with completely unrelated answers. But Spandel offers a terrific explanation of why writers need some latitude when it comes to the topic.
"We have a right to ask student writers to make a point in their writing, too. That's fair. Sometimes, though, they must travel a bit from the prompt to get there."
I am wondering if we could revise our rubrics to reflect this. As they are now, they give us a way to score writing based on the "perfect" response, or as Spandel says, "the well-worn path". If we are going to encourage personalizing or extending the prompt we need to do more to push our kids out onto the "less- traveled road".
I really like the idea that when we read a piece of writing we should see if we can determine what point the author is trying to make. It would be interesting to do an unofficial experiment to see how we judge the work when we don't see the prompt. Maybe we could measure the important thing we are trying to measure.
There are students who are very good formulaic writers. They follow all the rules and develop each topic completely. They use complex sentences and correct punctuation. And while they always score well, something always seems to be missing.
This chapter was, like the others, powerful. These words especially appealed to me:
"In writing, creativity matters. Spontaneity is a virtue. Originality and perspective define voice. Risk is essential to success. And writers who never think for themselves cannot get anywhere". So nicely said.
Sometimes the issue of staying on topic is about teacher control. I know a few teachers who would never allow a drifting from the topic, even if it is high quality writing related to the prompt. They wouldn't hesitate to mark the student down for failing to follow directions. As Spandel wrote, "Wander from my topic and you will pay". I never want to be that teacher.
Mabe we could use a rough draft rubric that focuses on developing ideas and then during a writing conference investigate the ideas of those "off-topic" students. We could also shift away from rubrics to more of an evaluation with a focus on developing ideas more. Rubrics, SOAPStone etc seem no more than a quick adapation of the writing section of any grammar and usage handbooks. Maybe we need to re-evaluate our own prompts if they do mislead students or are too vague.
DeleteI'm also intrigued at the thought of scoring a student's writing without knowing the prompt. Sometimes I feel that when I score a piece of writing, I have a predetermined notion of what the response "should" include. Is it possible that my own personal notions cloud my judgement when scoring writing?
DeleteMy thoughts exactly Marina/Rebecca. I sometimes score writing based on the first ten responses I read … "Well, the group seems to think this is where the writing should go …" I may ask a fellow teacher to let me see their students writing to see if I score differently when I am not aware of the prompt.
DeleteSpandel Chapter 3 Reflection
ReplyDeleteThe Right to Go “Off Topic”
This chapter left me feeling very lucky that I teach a composition class which allows me so much more flexibility in assignments than my literature classes. Then I started really thinking about the writing portion of my literature classes. As noted in the chapter, my literature classes have required prompts that are assigned for all students by grade level with little room to wiggle. I understand the thinking behind this - in planning the curriculum maps, the required assignments hit on each type of writing which is important (narrative, persuasive, research, poetry etc.). It is, however, hard to fit much more into a semester than those required prompts. While I try to move through these prompts the same way I move through assignments in my composition classes, time is certainly more limited and it is not always an attainable goal. These thoughts all led me to one more: what if all students were required to take both a literature class and a writing class each year so that proper time could be spent on helping students develop their voices and an appreciation of the writing process separately from helping students develop an understanding and appreciation of literature? That would be my kind of ELA curriculum ;)
I also noted how she asks at the end about papers being put to use (37) and remembered how at our group interview in March, there was a conversation about publishing student work (is it Norm’s voice in my head?). This last semester, my eighth graders wrote mini-memoirs and I really took my time. I read sample memoirs and had students journal; they brainstormed and outlined; they drafted and peer edited; I reviewed and helped them to revise and edit and then gave them additional time once the opportunity to work on it in class was over to produce their final revised copy which also included a reflection of their work. I was so impressed with the results of their efforts that (keeping the March conversation in mind) I created a book we called “Memoiries”, printed copies and, for kids who wanted them, brought them to Staples to have them wire-bound and covered. And I cannot help but think that allowing myself to be flexible with deadlines and taking the extra time and steps to work on this with my literature classes aided in their success. This realization goes back to my first paragraph and the limited time to spend on writing in literature classes…if only I could approach every assignment this way! And so the cycle continues.
Then I stumbled onto this sentence from Bob Ornstein at the end, “Good coaching doesn’t begin with spelling and grammar - or commas. It begins with the writer’s ideas - and with the writer” (39). “Revise for meaning, edit for conventions” is what I have my students write down in their writer’s notebooks as I try to help them understand the difference between the two and how much more important it is to revise than to edit. Finding this statement at the end of the chapter gave me a twinge of validation that I am on the right track with this line of thought and should keep that as my developing writers’ mantra. Small victories! Have a good week!
I love the idea of the mini-memoirs--it echoes Freedom Writers--maybe some of those entries could even serve as exemplars--or your students' works could. I sympathize with you constrained writing curriculum, expecially for s semester course. Memoirs do fit within the narrative classification and meet a-e of the Common Core for narrative writing. Argumentation comes from th Rhtori of Ancient Greece and was meant for public speaking--as do all the other classifications we use. (Lil Brannon and Charles Knoblauch-sp?- wrote a great book, Rhetorical Traditions and the Teaching of Writing that offers many insights into crafting thoughtful writing. You do have to wade through much philosophy, from epistemology to brain science, but the effort seems well worth it.
DeleteI love the idea of creating student published pieces of writing. I think that the motivation to be successful lies in creating something that many other people will read. Students tend to be more careful when they know their writing will be looked at by more people other than themselves and a teacher. I think it's wonderful that you were able to spend extra time with them making their memoirs pieces they were proud to publish.
DeleteDebbie,
DeleteAs I was reading your first paragraph I was thinking, 'I wonder if having separate required literature and writing classes would work?' Then you wrote exactly what I was thinking. I really believe that could work. It would also give us an opportunity to work collaboratively with other content areas in order to help students read and write more effectively across the curriculum. We'd have so much more time to develop assignments and "revise for meaning", rather than just crank out as much as we can in the very limited amount of time that we've got. Even if we couldn't do it for kids each year, maybe it would be possible to do it in the earlier grades (8&9).
The idea of separate literature and writing classes is really interesting. At my former school we essentially accomplished that sophomore year. Students took a term of speech, a term of writing (not really enough) and a semester of writing That way, they could really focus on one discipline at a time.
DeleteMy classes now are divided between literature and writing as two separate skills -- I'm teaching more critical reading than I am literary analysis, so it would seem that treating the two tracks as different subjects would be practical.
I'm not sure why we focus so much on writing literary analysis. It's a great skill if you're going to be an English major, but maybe it would make more sense to provide more "career ready" than "college ready" opportunities for writers.
Hello all,
ReplyDeleteChapter 3 opens with a discussion about staying on-topic in a particular instance of standardized testing. Students who wrote about two endangered species instead of one received the lowest possible score on their essays. To be honest, I do not understand the rationale. Yes, they were prompted to write about one species. They did. Then they went above and beyond and wrote about a second species. If that is their prerogative, to go beyond the bare minimum assigned, how then can they receive the bare minimum score? I would love my students to do more than whatever merits them the D grade. My outgoing seniors were only interested in passing, with or without the cushion of added points above a 60.0. In my eighth grade class, I have had one turnaround student go from a D to a B. However, as I learned this morning, he is only motivated by the promise of a $400 bicycle. I bring up grades rather than focusing on writing because to me grades equal effort. Yes, I give a rubric, but I also look at the student’s progress and the effort they put into a piece of writing. Is the topic well-developed, was it revised, etc.? I wouldn’t mind if a student took creative license with a topic because it would demonstrate something other than the written regurgitation of whatever was discussed in class or what the majority of students chose to write about. Reading the opening anecdote actually concerns me, because what if assessors like that are who are grading our students? How is that fair?
At the same time, by assigning prompt after prompt, are we not creating our own monsters? The author states it best: “I had learned to write a thesis when someone handed me a subject. When I had to conceptualize it myself, I was stumped.” (38) I agree that students need that structure initially, but at what point do we begin to encourage individuality? Of assigning a writing assignment and letting them create what they choose to hand in? We can still allow them freedom while adhering to certain guidelines (MLA format, in-text citations, use of literary devices, etc.). There needs to be some sort of transition where students mentally remove their training wheels for writing. With my Composition class, those students simply are not ready to lose the wheels. In my literature classes, however, how much time can I legitimately devote to writing before I fall behind on all the other requirements I need to meet? I feel like this response is just a series of questions, but hopefully at least by my asking them I can mentally prepare for what I can do in the remaining time with my students as well as prepare for next year. Have a good week!
Colleen, I totally agree with you that student's progress and effort needs to be part of assessing writing, and that is a major component missing on all of these standardized writing tests. And your series of questions echoes in my head as well. We have composition classes which in our case consist of mostly low-level, struggling writers, and a variety of literature classes into which we are expected to "stick" some writing, neither of these provide ample opportunity for true writing instruction as we understand it should be done.
DeleteRebecca, I think you're right when you say "It's very sad." And I think it is sad to have to struggle so much to do what we know to be right for our students.
I'm right there with you as far as having a lot of questions in response to the reading. I guess that's good though. When we stop asking questions, that's when we should worry! Asking the questions prompts us to think of creative solutions to these problems we encounter as we try to help our students develop into thoughtful readers and writers.
DeleteThis is a little off-track, but on the topic of standardized testing, is anyone hearing from their administration about pushback on the excessive amount of testing at the state level? My superintendent shared a report that summarized testimony from the state superintendent's association to the legislature protesting the amount of testing that students are doing. My own district is also backing way off on the number of assessments, especially in writing, telling me that we are turning the corner from quantity to quality.
DeleteOf course, I've had my ideals dashed before.
There is pushback in MA right now. There is at least one bill floating around that is demanding a 3 year moratorium on high stakes testing in order to research the issue more in depth. Rhode Island passed a similar law last fall. The MTA is having a week of action this week to support this initiative.
DeleteColleen,
ReplyDeleteWhat a brilliant line: "There needs to be some sort of transition where students mentally remove their training wheels for writing". Your questions are thought-provoking and could be topics for reflections all by themselves.
I have a relative who graded MCAS essays one year and that was exactly the sort of scoring he was required to do. He admitted that, after correcting several compositions, they all became boring to him. It's very sad.
Hi Rebecca - i'm surprised your relative became bored after several. I honestly become bored after a few!! We've got to do something to change this.
DeleteI’m getting emotional – seriously.
ReplyDeleteAs I read and re-read Chapter 3 and compare the lessons I’m learning with my classroom writing experience, I arrive at the same conclusions Spandel does:
Writing assessment becomes a control issue (33).
Where the writer begins is not where h/she needs to end up (35).
Why don’t student’s put more voice into their writing? Why don’t caged animals run more (31)?
How can we change this?
Is our job simply to get our students to aim for a high score on the test or learn to love writing? Can we do both?
I’m thinking I may have to section my writing block into creative writing and test writing. But what if students don’t put any creativity into their test writing? What if they don’t follow the prompt, or stray off topic?
How can we change this?
In my class this morning I took my students through our past Saturday’s experience. I showed them pictures of the Lloyd Center I had taken and described our day. I told them about our writing prompt (simply to write) and shared with them one of my pieces. I then asked them to reflect on their special place, to close their eyes and go to a place that made them comfortable. Maybe it looked like the Lloyd center or maybe it didn’t. Once we were ready, I tasked them with writing, only I didn’t give them a prompt. They could write whatever they wanted to. They could sit anywhere in our three rooms (46 kids) and use our computers, laptops, or a pencil and paper, whatever they chose.
Their faces lit up, they couldn’t stop talking with each other about the ideas that were forming in their brains, and eventually they couldn’t stop writing. It was amazing. Children were littered among the books, tables and chairs in our rooms. Stretching on the floor, sitting on the counters and curled up in the corners. Fingers typing or scribbling whatever was on their minds. Gazing out the window only to stumble upon a thought, realize it’s importance to their story and immediately capture it on paper. I was proud to teach today.
How can we get this kind of excitement in every writing class?
This post made my day, Bill! Your students are so fortunate to have a teacher who shares with them and invites them to do the same! I don't know the answer to your last question, but when you have those days that make you second guess yourself, just remember today and that you were proud to teach! I love it!
DeleteBill, I understand that emotion. As frustrating as it is, we can use the energy to make it better for our kids. Nice job.
DeleteWow Bill -- what a wonderful writing experience for your students. We're tied to 68 minute blocks during which we are supposed to have an activator, a lesson, and then some sort of formative wrap-up. That kind of scheduling rigidity really diminishes the creative process. Fortunately, I've been there long enough to stretch the expectations, and I often "set them free" when a lesson is going well. It's worth the risk of reprimand to see the excitement in a student's face.
DeleteSpandel said that “writers do not wander off topic, but rather onto their real topics.” Later in THE WRITER’S NOTEBOOK, Bob Ornstein followed up with the observation that his professors attention “was more on my thinking than on the writing itself.”
ReplyDeleteSeveral years ago I attended a weekend writing workshop at Bard College. Their Institute for Writing and Thinking is based on Peter Elbow’s theories of writing which rely heavily on free writing. I remember being told to “write until I (my teacher) tell you to stop, even if you think you don’t have any ideas.” I was, of course, resistant to that until I really gave it a sincere effort.
Sometimes there aren’t ideas flowing from your brain to your pen, but something about the actual act of writing – with a pen and not a computer – stimulates new activity in the brain. My colleagues and I are fond of citing the studies that support this process as opposed to the keyboard (which, ironically I am using now). Skepticism aside, free writing does work, and one thought leads to another until the page becomes a travel guide to your brain’s exploration of sense and memory. Spandel says earlier that “Each little piece on the page opens a door beyond which is a fork in the road,” and those connections provide more insight into the mind of the writer than any canned prompt can.
The real problem that this chapter considers is not the writer’s problem, but the reader’s. How do we assess something so unique and individual? Perhaps instead of spending time on rubber stamping deadly prompts we should be re-writing rubrics with new indicators that better reflect “the important thing” and not “the simple thing.”
You make a great point in saying that the problem in this chapter belongs to the reader not to the writer. It reminds me of a conversation I had with a fellow English teacher where she told me that when she grades essays she only looks for one thing and ignores all other errors or places for improvement. I remember being shocked that a fellow teacher could ignore the entire piece of writing and only focus in on whether or not quotes are used correctly. Mindsets like that are what's creating a generation of kids who dislike writing.
DeleteColleen -- that sounds like a John Connors (?) management approach to writing. It's supposed to make the correcting load easier, but I always found it frustrating to ignore everything except the Focused Areas of Correction. I don't think that students can necessarily put together all the pieces after an entire year of feedback like that.
DeleteThis chapter was ringing a bit redudant at the beginning as it seemed to be more of the same choosing one's own topic, but then it evoked thoughts about evaluating our prompts. Sometimes, the prompts lend themselves to simple answers and other times generate higher level thinking skills, such aswriting about two endangered species instead of one. Two seems to mrit more reward than almost the highest score. Those prompts do lock us into narrow thinkng that contradicts the purpose of writing--to create meaning.In our Deparment of English we ar evaluating our rubric, our method of assessing student writing as our team Student Learning Goal. We have found that some of our prompts lead to summary or formulaic writing and that our rubrics too often depend on external structures--College Board/parrc etc. As a able Leader for grading the Long Comp in MCAS, I had to remind readers constantly that we were evaluting writing and no literary analysis. We had simply become used to prompts based on literature and even personal preference. I am glad to know that this Writing Institute is putting forth even more of such discussion
ReplyDeleteI do think we forget to create cognitive tension necessary for thinking, aka writing. How can we employ Hegelian Dialectic to help student create authentic writing and then have an authentic assessment? Sometimes we have to ask the students to be patient, o realioze that one question generates an answer and then that answer generates another question. It's like Thomas Merton's idea that one question abou truth will simply lead to another question; our lives then becom a series of questions with temporary answers. I have used Keat "Ode on Grecian Urn" and the "solarium" chapter of Black Swan Green to help students write about such topics--even in poetic form. It reminds me of the old Greek myths where Chaos generates order. We just have to make sure we allow for that chaos.
It's funny that you mention chaos...just this week, as part of an anticipation guide for reading "A Midsummer Night's Dream" I asked my eighth graders if they agreed or disagreed with the statement "Chaos and confusion are necessary parts of life." Most of them agreed. In the brief discussion that followed, they explained to me that in order to appreciate calm, you have to experience chaos. One student said, "You don't know what love is unless you know hate." Another commented that chaos and confusion help you to learn new things because when you struggle with something you appreciate the solution more. These kids get it...how can I harness this thinking for writing??
DeleteNaNoWriMo is National Novel Writing Month. I do this every year with my students. For mentor discussions on writing, try the blog pages on ywp.nanowrimo.org (the young writers program site) - they are filled with writing advice from normal, everyday people - mostly kids and teens - sometimes famous authors. Many of them focus on getting over writer's block or pushing forward, even when you think what you wrote is junk!
DeleteChapter 3 Reflection
ReplyDeleteI laughed out loud when I read the following statements," The writer expanded the topic a bit, true. Good for her. She knew more than the prompt required." Isn't it ironic that we want our students to be able to think for themselves and problem solve on their own, but when they go off topic and become creative, we penalize? We want them to be individuals, but answer a prompt, given to everyone, just the way we want you to or else.
In essence,on state testing, we are asking our students to fake their passion for a cookie cutter prompt. How discouraging? This remindded me of the year MCAS gave a prompt to the 4th graders that required them to write about a snow day. I remember the uproar. Not everyone had experienced a snow day. I will admit, here in our little forum that I have had students call me to their desks during the long composition stating that they didn't have anything to write about. My response was always,"Make it up. Don't worry the MCAS police are not going to call home to verify your story."
Solution, solution, solution? Not sure, but I know what I would like to try at the lower elementary level. Give each student a notebook, let them personalize it, and give them time to write about anything they want every day. Let that writing be pictures, if needed, but let them write about what they know, what they feel, and what they wish for.
I think that our goal should be to get our little ones to love writing. After all, if a student loves to write and are writing about what they like, their voice and passion will shine.
So, when did writing for pleasure become taboo in schools?
Tracie, I agree with you- we should get them to love writing because then they will write! And when they write they will become better writers. Makes sense to us! I also used to tell my 4th graders that when they come across a prompt they cannot relate to, make it up.
DeleteAs I read chapter 3, a couple of quotes struck some thoughts for me. There were a lot of powerful thoughts within the chapter, thoughts that made me as the reader stop and think and wonder about my own opinions. These two quotes in particular struck a cord.
ReplyDelete"Why don't caged animals run more?"
I really liked this analogy that the author made when talking about how we place too many restrictions on our students as writers. It got me thinking that not only are our writing classes turning into a scene where we hold students back, but that as teachers we are also feeling a little bit like caged animals. We are held back by standards, curriculum, evaluations, etc. There is so much to do and accomplish that I feel like we restrict ourselves in what we allow ourselves as teachers to do. Can we be creative when the "to do" list gets longer and longer with each passing day? I think these feelings then transfer into what our expectations are. We need to meet those standards so I know that I look at writing from students sometimes and just go through a checklist in my head. Are there three details, are there topic and closing sentences, etc. etc. etc. How boring! I think that so far all of our conversations during class meeting times have really showed that we are all ready to break out of this mold but need to find a way to do so while still checking off everything that we can find on that to do list.
Second, this quote was found on the first page of the chapter. "Writing a first draft is very much like watching a Polariod develop. You can't - and in fact, you're not supposed to - know exactly what the picture is going to look like until it has finished developing." - Anne Lamott
I loved this thought because I think that this is an idea that writers need to internalize, and I try to explain this idea to my students but it is a tough idea for them to wrap their heads around. They always seem to have the "short story problem." They write very short pieces with little substance, but I think that part of the problem may go back to how we address this idea of being "on topic." For my students, I think they are starting to envision being on topic as creating a piece that is chronologically sound, so in other words, it has a beginning, middle, and end. They don't worry about developing that middle because their focus is make sure it has a beginning, middle, and end. It's hard for students to understand that sometimes it takes a while before you settle on a final product, and that when you set out to write a story, it may actually end up going in a completely different direction. I don't think that my students even allow themselves to feel that their story can end in a different way.
My thoughts exactly Marina - I love the connection between students and teachers with the caged animal quote (Spandel is quite sassy). It does become boring when we try to correct boring papers - but are we making the papers boring … or is the system?
DeleteI liked the Anne Lamott quote also! I believe that idea resonates with us because we have some experience and maturity, just as the author realized how his writing developed in college.
DeleteHello All,
ReplyDeleteI loved the example Spandel gave of the teacher who wasn't sure how to score the student response that went "off topic" by thoughtfully expanding on a prompt. That the state would rank such a response as 1 out of 5 is, to me, immoral. How wrong it is to teach students that thinking beyond the prompt makes them "in need of improvement". And yet, we need to teach our kids how to play the game of standardized testing when we could be teaching them how to write and think for themselves. It's so sad to think of the potential that might never be reached as a result of such a narrow way of assessing our students' strengths.
I love that you use the phrase of playing the game. I feel like that has become a requirement in my room as well. I have even used the phrase with my students when getting through what's required in order to get to what is needed. I hope that the state eventually realizes what it is doing to our students.
DeleteI was relieved to be reminded that actual humans read and score the MCAS prompts! However, I don't feel that adding an additional example is truly going "off topic". My students tend to go off topic in that they do not stick to the purpose of the assignment and instead of focused, thoughtful analysis, they regurgitate a summary of the story rather than explaining a theme or describing a character or specific conflict.
ReplyDeleteI have to say I would welcome it if my students went off topic and put in some effort and original ideas even if they needed to be revised a little. I don't see a lot of effort. Students seem to just write to complete a worksheet or check things off. More and more students just copy each other's work or plagiarize essays from the internet.
Students also do not like to cross out anything or revise. They seem to take quite a bit of time to write something down and then if they have a sentence that doesn't work they aren't usually willing to part with it because then they have to write another one.
I did experiment with daily journaling last fall with freshman honors students. That did produce some original writing and I got to know my students better, but I think journal writing just helps to get some kids to feel more comfortable writing but the journal entries don't really stand alone as finished writing, especially when working with a specific curriculum and assigned prompts!
The reading selection was interesting to hear another point of view; however, the reality is if I teach to the test or formulaic writing, at least students will pass the MCAS and learn a few basics which they can leave behind as they mature like the author described in his memoir.